r/MapPorn Jun 15 '21

The Europe that was

Post image
15k Upvotes

603

u/JeanDoucel Jun 15 '21

Does that mean many archeological objects and sites could be found at the bottom of what is now water?

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u/spaceraycharles Jun 15 '21

Absolutely. It is extremely expensive to perform concerted underwater archaeology, though.

251

u/EroticBurrito Jun 15 '21

I dream of being alive to see technology which opens up this stuff, it will be a renaissance for our understanding of prehistory.

197

u/Deesing82 Jun 15 '21

we have the technology today to build a colony on Mars

and yet the technologies to explore the deep ocean are still beyond us. it’s fascinating.

161

u/RizzMustbolt Jun 15 '21

Zero to one atmospheres: Easy Peasy.

50 atmospheres: Very difficult.

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u/Poes-Lawyer Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

"How many atmospheres can this ship take, Professor?"

"Well it's a spaceship, so I'd say anywhere between zero and 1."

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u/OGHoolz Jun 15 '21

Oh, Futurama, how I love thee.

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u/wakasagihime_ Jun 15 '21

Considering what could lie in the deepest unexplored parts of our oceans, I'd say it's a good call. Stop exploring oceans. Absolutely nothing for you there but darkness and leviathan-class horrors.

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u/azius20 Jun 15 '21

Thalassophobia keeps me on land.

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u/briansdrain Jun 15 '21

Land is where we’d prefer to have you.

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u/Dexjain12 Jun 15 '21

Please dont name your cat

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u/Sometimes_Lies Jun 15 '21

What? His cat’s name can’t possibly be that b—

...oh.

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u/orsadiluna Jun 15 '21

Is this about Lovecraft?

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u/heelstoo Jun 15 '21

There’s a movie quote that’s escaping me, and I’d love to know what movie it’s from. I’m paraphrasing from faulty memory, but, “Space? Space is easy. There’s almost nothing up there. Down is hard. There’s all sorts of things you have to get through to go down.”

Generally, something like that. I feel like it might’ve been from The Core.

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u/SimoHayhaWithATRG42 Jun 15 '21

A favorite hobby of mine is tracking Paul Allen, one of Microsoft's founders. He spends buku bucks on discovering/exploring human history lost in the ocean. And does it all from a yacht with killer tech, so well-funded that you'd be forgiven for assuming it was government-sponsored.

In the last couple years, they've found a few Japanese, American and I believe Australian vessels from WW2 and found ways to honor/let the families honor the dead while providing the world with a valuable trove of new knowledge.

That is what I would do if I won the lotto

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u/Pallais Jun 15 '21

Spent. Paul Allen died in 2018. The RV Petrel is currently in long term moorage because of Covid-19 according to Wikipedia. Hopefully the funds to keep her running will be available once things are back to a more normal state.

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u/ProviNL Jun 15 '21

Pretty sure fishing nets that rake the bottom regularly get stuff like pottery shards and stuff in their nets in much of the north sea.

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u/carpetedman Jun 15 '21

A lot of man made artifacts have been pulled out of Dogger Bank. Things like spear and harpoon points made from bone and flint. I believe this was the first.

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u/cucumbertree666 Jun 15 '21

If you live on the coast of the North Sea you can find fossils and artefacts that have washed up. Not usually common but I have found deer bones and similar things that would have lived on doggerland. I’ve seen worked flints as well in museums that have been found along the beach.

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u/OttosBoatYard Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

So the North Sea bed has two thousand years of nautical artifacts lying on top of another two thousand years of tribal agrarian society artifacts.

Amazing to think about what we haven't found yet.

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u/Duke-Von-Ciacco Jun 15 '21

I was thinking the same thing, specially in black sea and Mediterranean former coastline

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u/jpbunge Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

Read "Noah's Flood," by Walter C. Pitman, III and William Ryan. It's a fascinating book about the catastrophic flood of the black sea from the Mediterranean through what is now the Bosphorus Strait which raised water levels causing a mass migration away from the area about 5500 years ago, possibly inspiring the bevy of flood myths we have. The first half is pretty dry technical/geological record, the second half is more interesting (though a bit far reaching at times) anthropological speculation about the migration routes of different black sea cultures into europe and the middle east. Very cool book.

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u/Duke-Von-Ciacco Jun 15 '21

Yes is a really interesting topic, problem is really hard to find remains, or artifacts

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u/CeltiCfr0st Jun 15 '21

Wow dude that’s awesome I didn’t know there was an actual flooding like that, thanks for sharing

61

u/DogfishDave Jun 15 '21

I didn’t know there was an actual flooding like that

Floods are a real part of life and, if you live on the land without a reinforced urban infrastructure, they're catastrophic.

Much is made by pseudo-archaeologists of the number of "flood" legends in various cultural histories, often with the intent of tying those legends to a single source. That's unlikely, it's far more credible that severe floods happened to many cultures and that each made its way into legend as what it was - a big flood the likes of which nobody (local, of course) had seen before.

There's geological evidence for catastrophic flooding across the human epoch, including large tsunamis originating from ice calves around the Arctic Circle. When these happened at the top of the North Sea they had a devastating effect on the 'shallow' terrain to their south.

TLDR: Floods everywhere all the time! :)

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u/sure_hikes_a_lot Jun 15 '21

Don't forget the Missoula and Bonneville floods, which dramatically reshaped much of eastern Washington and submerged Portland under 750 feet of water moving at 60 miles an hour. Apparently humans may have witnessed - or been caught in - at least some of them!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1BFb_uYlFQ

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u/A_1337_Canadian Jun 15 '21

Don't forget about glacial lake Aggasiz! About 30 times the size of glacial lake Missoula.

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u/sure_hikes_a_lot Jun 15 '21

I’d give no small amount of money to watch those floods from a safe distance. Can you imagine 400 feet of water moving at 60 miles an hour over a waterfall hundreds of feet high?

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u/EroticBurrito Jun 15 '21

The Mediterranean has dried up and re-flooded several times.

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u/HoneyRush Jun 15 '21

Yes there was, a long long time ago I watched good documentary film about that flood on Discovery Channel (this should give you an idea on how long time ago it was)

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u/dbar58 Jun 15 '21

So they filmed during the flood?

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u/HoneyRush Jun 15 '21

Yup, not to long after Discovery Channel stopped broadcasting documentaries

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u/Simplicio_ Jun 15 '21

The trouble is the land mass existed when most tools were made of wood and stone, and the wood rots away and the stone weathers and becomes nearly impossible to identify

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u/Godscrasher Jun 15 '21

With wood being underwater it might be preserved as there is no oxidization. The stone would be the opposite as that is how granules form on beaches etc with it being under water

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u/DogfishDave Jun 15 '21

Amazing to think about what we haven't found yet.

Indeed. There is research ongoing, particularly where the wind farms are being placed/maintained, but it's quite a drifty floor in parts despite being (comparatively) shallow.

There are still parts of the coast where the remains of petrified forests are revealed at very low tides and they're well worth seeing.

For those who like crap jokes (or niche soirées) the new Doggerland is slightly inland from here in a layby on the A1079, most evenings, weather depending.

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u/JoeB- Jun 15 '21

True, although, agriculture didn’t reach the British Isles until 4500 to 5000 BC (Wikipedia fwiw). Doggerland was probably already under the North Sea by then. Hunter-gatherers, on the other hand, probably followed the megafauna north along with the retreat of the continental ice sheets. Those peoples were already in those areas well before the 16000 BC ice extent shown in the map.

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u/SurlyRed Jun 15 '21

Fuckin' hunter-gatherers, comin' over 'ere...

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u/EroticBurrito Jun 15 '21

You finned cunt.

Seriously though, imagine all the mesolithic monuments and sites under this huge swathe of low-lying arable coastland and hunting tundra.

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u/ChuckRampart Jun 15 '21

Which two periods of 2,000 years are you referring to?

It’s been mostly underwater for about 8,000 years, and was above sea level for about 8,000 years before that.

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u/craftyhedgeandcave Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

I geek out over Doggerland, I even reckon it would have been a pretty sweet place to live in the Mesolithic - a nice little hut on some stilts amid the wetlands, prolly plenty to eat. I designed a big rpg campaign and cultures etc over very similar maps ages ago too

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u/Anacoenosis Jun 15 '21

I'm fond of Doggerland because during this period, the three rivers that we associate with the national identities Germany/France/Britain (Rhine, Seine, Thames) were all the same river.

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u/leadingthenet Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

I’m curious, how did that work? They’re currently flowing in different directions as far as I can tell.

Edit: I get it. I should’ve looked at the map more closely.

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u/Zouden Jun 15 '21

They met and flowed west through what is now the English channel.

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u/SurlyRed Jun 15 '21

This confuses me no end. They can only have flowed west after the Dover Strait land bridge was breached. And yet this seems to have been caused by southerly coastal erosion and/or a castrophic lake breach in the north.

Before the breach, the Thames & Rhine surely flowed north into the Norwegian basin. The coasts of East Anglia and Netherlands have all the appearance of a giant estuary, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

After the breach the sea encroached, so I don't understand how the western flow of the river squares with this.

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u/remi_pan Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

The map seems to assume that the land bridge was between the netherlands and east anglia, not at Dover/Calais...

Edit: the Wikipedia page is a good read ! The breach of the straight seems to have occured several hundred milenia before the time shown in this map (two major floods at -425000 and -225000).

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u/mrtn17 Jun 15 '21

wtf.. does that mean Doggerland was submerged before? Can you link that specific wiki, I'd love to read it

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u/remi_pan Jun 15 '21

It's the wikipedia page for the Straight of Dover. But let's got to the source... This Nature article explain the process in a very understandable way. See fig. 2 that imply that around -500 000 the Doggerland was submerged in a huge glacial lake (blocked by ice at the north).

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u/mrtn17 Jun 15 '21

That last article was certainly a good read. This whole story just begs to be animated. After that dam between France and England breached, the gigantic glacial lake dropped 30m.. can't imagine how that would even look

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u/lost_horizons Jun 15 '21

Every map I can find online of ancient rivers in the area show the Rhine going west through the English Channel area.

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u/Anacoenosis Jun 15 '21

You can see it on the map--they all converge in the future English Channel, with the Rhine and Thames joining north of Calais and the Seine flowing into the English Channel basin through Normandy.

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u/JukesIsOk Jun 15 '21

I’m fascinated by the idea of how the world would’ve evolved if Doggerland had never flooded. The huge huge river that connected all northern France, the southern UK, the Benelux and northern Germany would be hella rich

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u/cybercuzco Jun 15 '21

Keep in mind the climate would have been more like alaska or siberia at that point. Note in this map that scandanavia is covered with an ice sheet like greenland is now.

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u/RisKQuay Jun 15 '21

What about in the period 7000 B.C. to ~4000 B.C. - do you know what kind of climate it would have been?

Surely it couldn't have been too harsh as this is the period in which humans migrated to the British Isles, right?

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u/cybercuzco Jun 15 '21

Humans live in siberia, Greenland too for that matter.

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u/RisKQuay Jun 15 '21

Sure, I was just wondering.

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u/danielpernambucano Jun 15 '21

Isnt that the Rhine? So the thames was at some point an affluent of the Rhine.

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u/JukesIsOk Jun 15 '21

It has the Rhine, the Thames and also the Seine (Paris) and the Somme (northern France), connecting all of north-western Europe’s capitals directly to the Atlantic

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u/Infantry1stLt Jun 15 '21

The salmon fishing would’ve been off the charts!

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u/MangoCats Jun 15 '21

For the sea levels to have stayed low enough to preserve Doggerland, it would also have had to be quite a bit colder... wonder what the impact on the Sahara would have been?

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u/EnteFetz Jun 15 '21

Damn, that would be an amazing alternate History. Doggerland + Green Sahara. But Europe would also be very cold, which means probably not much going on there. Which means the Roman Empire would stay south of the Alps and leave the sparsely populated north to the savages, while the Romans are busy defending northern Africa against the civilisations that thrive in the green Sahara.

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u/No-Chemistry-2611 Jun 15 '21

Ice sheets mean larger, drier sahara. During the last glacial maximum the sahara was drier than today. The sahara only greened as the ice melted.

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u/Nurizeko Jun 15 '21

No vikings.

No Egypt perhaps. No Greece? Arabia isn't cut off and so harsh, maybe no Islam.

Maybe no Spain due to the Reconquista.

No need to try and bypass the hostile Islamic world = less incentive to go West.

Would the Roman empire be around to crucify Jesus?

Would be a fun world-building project, trying to establish what a world with no global warming and sea rise would look like.

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u/lost_horizons Jun 15 '21

I mean, you change something this huge that far back, and you can forget about any idea of "Spain" or "Islam" or "Rome." The entire course of civilization would have been so different these latecomers would never be a thing.

Keep in mind that by the time Rome was founded civilization was already 3000 years old, or more, maybe much, much more, if Gobekli Tepe tells us anything. Agriculture/town dwellings in some form or another, at least, are at least about 10,000 years old.

It's a fun thought experiment.

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u/Neethis Jun 15 '21

Colder also means drier. A warmer climate creates more evaporation, storms and monsoons can drive further inland, and warm air holds more moisture.

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u/MVALforRed Jun 15 '21

Not that much, actually. The sea level 8200 years ago was about the same as today. If the Earthquake didn't happen, or Lake Aggasiz didn't break it's banks, a significant portion of Doggerland would be above Sea Level.

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u/notyogrannysgrandkid Jun 15 '21

WWI would have been over faster

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u/getrektbro Jun 15 '21

WW1 doesn't happen as we know it imo

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u/a_is_for_a Jun 15 '21

If Britain never separated from Europe then first question should be, did the classical societies come to be (as we know them) and from there on out all bets are off on how the socio-political map of Europe would have evolved.

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u/Annales-NF Jun 15 '21

I like your thought

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u/MadeInPucci Jun 15 '21

Now that's a good starting point for a super-Carolingian Empire alternative history

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u/a_is_for_a Jun 15 '21

To be fair, the Thames is not that big. It is mostly tidal around London. By the time you get to Reading it’s a small fraction of what you see in London.

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u/grimjerk Jun 15 '21

and what's now the English Channel would be like the Grand Canyon in the US

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u/Xciv Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

Europe would become a river civilization more akin to China or India than the seafaring civilization it eventually became. Part of what made Europe special is that many competing countries all had easy access to the Atlantic, and so could have cutthroat competition over who could colonize more aggressively. These many competitive countries could co-exist because they were cut off from one another geographically through mountain ranges, the channel, and major rivers.

But if there's nothing dividing England, France, and Germany, then it's almost geographical destiny that the whole river system becomes united under a single empire at multiple points in history.

Also, the abundance of land and smaller number of available sea ports would mean inland trade would be preferred, centering on the great river systems. Instead of merchants getting rich sailing from England to France, they would focus on riverboats sailing up/down the Rhine/Thames/Seine. And riverboats function very differently from seagoing vessels, so the age of exploration might have never kicked off in the first place.

Although, Portugal/Spain would probably still kick off the age of exploration. But because France/England/Germany is a unified continental power, they see no benefit in competing for overseas colonies against the Iberians. So instead the whole of the world would be colonized by just two European powers who cared about overseas trade, while the rest of Europe functioned like a supersized Austria-Hungarian Empire who worried exclusively about the European continent and fighting the Ottomans. If such a supersized European Empire existed, they might even defeat the Ottomans during the middle ages, and all of the Middle East might be re-christianized.

Anyways speculation is fun, I could go on endlessly.

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u/sintos-compa Jun 15 '21

Gulf Stream implications?

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u/StaartAartjes Jun 15 '21

Don't let your dreams be memes. The Doggersbank is like 15 meters deep. That is doable.

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u/lunapup1233007 Jun 15 '21

It’s only possible if the Dutch do it. The Dutch are the only people who could take a huge underwater area and make it land.

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u/LilDrummerGrrrl Jun 15 '21

Now I’m imagining, instead of Chinese/UAE-style artificial islands, the Dutch coming in, in true Dutch style, and just building massive sea walls around the entire bank and draining it. Like, the opposite of an island, just an empty basin in the middle of the North Sea.

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u/AlcaDotS Jun 15 '21

The UAE artificial islands were created by two Dutch companies, Van Oord and Boskalis.

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u/69ManasviPuSSyLover Jun 15 '21

They really hate the seas don't they?

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u/LetGoPortAnchor Jun 15 '21

We don't hate the sea, we just like land more.

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u/lunapup1233007 Jun 15 '21

That’s fair, Netherlands sounds a lot better than Netheroceans

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u/Nurizeko Jun 15 '21

The sea started it.

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u/SCDareDaemon Jun 15 '21

Well, we did build a giant series of infrastructure projects to tell the sea 'never again' after the north sea flood of '53.

And then we added a plaque on the biggest one that says (rough translation.)

'Here rule over the tides, the moon, the wind and the Dutch'

So you know, we got to back that up. If we couldn't that'd be hubris and hubris and oceans gets you Atlantis. No-one wants us to become Atlantis.

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u/jacksbox Jun 15 '21

The Italians can kind of do it too, but it will become a tourist destination and eventually sink.

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u/lunapup1233007 Jun 15 '21

The Germans could do it too, but it would go ten years over the schedule and have a lot of problems

So could the Americans, but half of the population would think it was a way to stop climate change so they would become very angry and not want it to be built

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u/Nurizeko Jun 15 '21

To think Venice could be saved if they'd just lower their pride and let the Dutch go ham on the entire lagoon.

TBH if nothing else I reckon they should just give up on the canals. Yeah it's a big part of the appeal and history but, it's either save the city by drying it out, or accept it's going to eventually be a half-underwater ruin.

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u/TonyQuark Jun 15 '21

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u/collinsl02 Jun 15 '21

And then everyone can pledge loyalty to a long dead Spanish king in their national anthem!

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u/AlcaDotS Jun 15 '21

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u/strolls Jun 15 '21

This link is required on my compy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Wind_Power_Hub

Is this a new vs old Reddit thing?

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u/freetambo Jun 15 '21

In June 2016, nine countries – the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, Luxemburg, France, Denmark, Ireland, Norway, and Sweden – signed an agreement to cooperate in planning and building offshore wind parks

Great that Luxemburg is in, but I'm not quite sure what they have to offer in terms of offshore.

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u/MangoCats Jun 15 '21

Luxemburg is in, but I'm not quite sure what they have to offer

Money.

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u/theCroc Jun 15 '21

What I always imagine is the cataclysmic desperation of the last peoples on Dogger bank. Can you imagine living in a place that slowly shrinks over time. Did they get really good at seafaring in a hurry or did they just stay and slowly dwindle until the last little group was standing in ankle-deep water wondering what to do now?

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u/Zouden Jun 15 '21

My guess is they would have noticed their land was getting flooded increasingly often during storms, so eventually it would have become intolerable, and they would leave on boats.

Unless they chopped down all the trees. They'd be fucked then.

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u/theCroc Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

Yeah I figure most of them would move to higher land bit by bit. But what about the groups that guessed wrong and the higher land they fled to was an island that eventually drowned? Sure they can make canoes, but eventually the distance to the other shore becomes way too far. This is after all 5000BCE we are talking about. Naval tech wasn't exactly advanced at the time.

EDIT: I found this old article of a possible answer. Basically the theory is that a massive landslide on the Norwegian coast around 6000BCE created a tsunami that basically washed the last inhabitants completely off of Doggerland. Now THAT's a cataclysm! Imagine if someone survived that on a raft and eventually landed on the european mainland. Imagine what the story would sound like! The survivors would not see land in an direction for days or weeks. They would believe that the wave had swept away the whole world and killed everyone! Maybe the story would still be retold thousands of years later and find itseäf integrated in various mythologies!

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u/Zouden Jun 15 '21

Well, it's not as far as the Polynesians travelled in their canoes, so I think it would be doable. Especially for people already experienced in using canoes for fishing.

But also wikipedia says there was a tsunami which probably wiped out the remaining settlements! So the end was indeed cataclysmic!

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u/Deesing82 Jun 15 '21

yeah but Polynesians were god-tier seafarers

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u/MangoCats Jun 15 '21

The early 1900s hurricane in the Florida Keys swept people across Florida bay, 30 to 40 miles. Many survived the wild ride, only to die of exposure on Cape Sable, mainly from insufficient fresh water.

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u/TailRudder Jun 15 '21

Didn't the Assyrians come from a region that is now at the bottom of the Persian gulf?

http://emvc.geol.ucsb.edu/2_infopgs/IP2IceAge/ePersGulfFlood.html

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u/MangoCats Jun 15 '21

People swim the channel even today, I'm sure they could have slogged out through the mudflats at low tide.

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u/50missioncap Jun 15 '21

You can see it happening today in Jakarta.

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u/_tpyo Jun 15 '21

be cold as shit tho. You wanna hide behind the alps if possible because ice age arctic wind would be no joke.

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u/DarkPasta Jun 15 '21

Hiiii, we're from Norway.

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u/_tpyo Jun 15 '21

I used to live in Reykjavik so I know what the wind is like. But remember that today you're still miles off the icecap, note how close the icecap is in this image.

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u/MangoCats Jun 15 '21

Note: you are from Norway, not Greenland.

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u/thatguyontheleft Jun 15 '21

Time Team, a UK television series about archeology had a special about Doggerland flooding.

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u/Nookoh1 Jun 15 '21

Do they dive Doggerland for ruins? Seems like a plave that might have a lot of anthropological history.

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u/QuickSpore Jun 15 '21

They do; although they dredge rather than dive. And it’s not exactly “ruins.” We expect Doggerland was occupied by nomadic hunter-gatherer types. Any site found would be expected to be more a camp than a village.

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u/collinsl02 Jun 15 '21

Fishing vessels keep catching artifacts in their nets and some areas close to the coasts have been dived, but a lot of it is too deep to dive.

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u/Pyrhan Jun 15 '21

But how many dogs did it have?

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u/lasdue Jun 15 '21

Go ask a Brit if they’d like to go dogging to Doggerland

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u/cybercuzco Jun 15 '21

People are going to say this about florida in 500 years.

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u/jacksbox Jun 15 '21

I wonder what they'll find instead of culture though

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u/MangoCats Jun 15 '21

T shirts, shot glasses, themed amusement parks...

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u/rivo_ Jun 15 '21

A recent exhibition at the museum of antiquities and history in Leiden, Netherlands featured life on Doggerland and what we know of it. If you’re interested, check out the book on the exhibition. In Dutch, but 160 pages with lots of pictures and maps and free to read online.

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u/ABoringAlt Jun 15 '21

share that rpg goodness, brutha

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u/-Another_Redditor- Jun 15 '21

I think the best place to live any time before a couple millennia ago would have been the northern plains of India. There's good reason why it's the most densely populated area in the world now; obviously the climate is ideal, with the temperature range being 10 to 35 degrees, so no abnormally cold weather that requires you to wear extra clothing just to survive, and it's not a desert either so 35 degree weather wouldn't kill you. And obviously the best part is the abundance of food, it being the most fertile area in the world with the Ganga and its tributaries flowing through from the Himalayas and into the Bay of Bengal.

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u/RedbeardRagnar Jun 15 '21

Why are there only a few towns named here and an island? Is that significant?

London, Goldcliff and Howick? Also Teviec Island?

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u/TrustMeIAmAGeologist Jun 15 '21

Those are Mesolithic archeological sites. Well, except London.

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u/Ffishsticks Jun 15 '21

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u/Frankie_Pizzaslice Jun 15 '21

Cool article! Thank you!

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u/CaptainN_GameMaster Jun 15 '21

If you or someone you love has suffered from Mesolithic finds, you could be entitled to compensation

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

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u/TrustMeIAmAGeologist Jun 15 '21

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u/Eldan985 Jun 15 '21

Still, a few high points. No Adriatic, so Italy connecdted to the Balkans, a lot more land in South-East Asia, and you can walk from Papua to Australia.

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u/HopelessUtopia015 Jun 15 '21

It's why Italy have so much corruption and mafia, they're Balkan at heart.

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u/Sh_okre996 Jun 15 '21

They even stole our woods to build Venice

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u/bitsfps Jun 15 '21

It`s good to point out that this isn't the actual map of that Era, lots of things like Tectonic Rebound (AKA, Post-Glacial Rebound) that would change the coastlines a lot aren't taken into consideration (they don't leave a lot of evidence, so most to all "historical data" of this event is theoretical, not empirical, but we know it happens), so this map specifically could (and probably was) very different in certain areas, because the Ice sheets in the north were so massive that they would alter the tectonic elevation of North Africa with its weight, and after the sudden end of it, they've gone/are going into place again, and not that slow.

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u/romeo_pentium Jun 15 '21

That map omits not just the glaciers but also the huge glacial lakes including the Caspian and Aral seas.

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u/red5squared Jun 15 '21

Continents looking thicc.

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u/Anacoenosis Jun 15 '21
  • It makes the "two boots packed into luggage" shape of Italy/Adriatic really clear.

  • Also, Sundaland and Sahul are pretty major differences.

  • And, of course, the Malvinas are truly part of Argentina.

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u/TheAirIsOn Jun 15 '21

Imagine the Netherlands being landlocked 🤔

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u/Aars93 Jun 15 '21

We can put all our energy into expansion instead of conquering the sea!

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u/doomhunter13 Jun 16 '21

This looks like the blueprint for future dutch expansion into the ocean

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u/Hapukurk666 Jun 15 '21

I have a (probably stupid) question though. Why does the norwegian trench exist?

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u/Maurice148 Jun 15 '21

I was about to mention how impressively deep it is. It started forming roughly 1 million years ago by erosion due to the ice streams from southern Norway, southwestern Sweden and also from the Baltic sea. Those ice streams were last present during the last ice age I reckon so 12000 years ago, tho i might be wrong about that.

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u/SkiingisFreeing Jun 15 '21

Last glacial maximum was about 25,000 years ago. The big ice streams mostly disintegrated from 20kyrs. 12,000 yrs ago was the Younger Dryas cooling period, where there was some readvances, but not that big.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

Beleriand / Eriador

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u/hippolyte_pixii Jun 15 '21

This legend or myth or dim memory of some ancient history has always troubled me. In sleep I had the dreadful dream of the ineluctable Wave, either coming out of the quiet sea, or coming in towering over the green inlands. It still occurs occasionally, though now exorcized by writing about it. It always ends by surrender, and I awake gasping out of deep water. I used to draw it or write bad poems about it.

—J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 257

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u/Quardener Jun 15 '21

Glad I’m not the only one who thought of that

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u/koshgeo Jun 15 '21

Peter Bird, an emeritus geology prof. at UCLA, had some fun with it: http://peterbird.name/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg

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u/EroticBurrito Jun 15 '21

Tolkien was a medievalist and almost certainly knew the archaeological history of the British & Irish Isles.

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u/Muffer-Nl Jun 15 '21

He was a history professor, he better have known that shit.

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u/MonsterRider80 Jun 15 '21

So it wasn't melting glaciers, but rather the War of Wrath?

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u/Salty_Pancakes Jun 15 '21

All that wrath was hot. Plus didn't some ding dong chuck a silmaril into the sea? That might have contributed as well.

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u/srmndeep Jun 15 '21

So, Netherlands is basically recovering the Doggerland..

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u/Riadys Jun 15 '21

I'm fascinated by the rivers. Are they based actual data? Can we see the ancient riverbeds at the bottom of the sea? (That would be pretty damn cool.) Or is this more of an artist's interpretation of where there might have been rivers?

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u/TrustMeIAmAGeologist Jun 15 '21

Not necessarily, but we can see where they emptied into the sea (see: porcupine seabight). If we were to go out there and do a crosssection, we could find them pretty well, and I’m sure there’s data from North Sea boring logs, but much of it is likely artistic license.

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u/MadMich Jun 15 '21

Only 8000 years ago as well.

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u/cucumbertree666 Jun 15 '21

Yeah that’s the crazy thing. People always talk in millions of years and often think of how the Earth have changed science the dinosaurs but in reality your entire area would look completely different only a few thousand years ago, let along one million. Especially with erosion and sea level rise, these things can happen surprising quickly.

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u/Sir-Bonesalot Jun 15 '21

Just that little strip of land between Kent and Calais changes the course of British and to an extent European history. I could only imagine the geopolitical situation if just the land from 7000 BC survived.

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u/collinsl02 Jun 15 '21

World history I'd say - everything being interconnected

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u/wilby-scoot Jun 15 '21

ah, doggerland. aka:leeds

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u/beetlemouth Jun 15 '21

Heavy Dutch Breathing Intensifies

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u/Tall-Log-1955 Jun 15 '21

It's crazy what the map was like before brexit

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u/Zouden Jun 15 '21

Doggerland for the doggers!

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u/place909 Jun 15 '21

Amazing to see that the Thames, Rhine, and Seine were tributaries of the same river.

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u/ZoeLaMort Jun 15 '21

Ireland: Fuck, now British people will come on our shores for vacation.

Denmark: no more water, sad Viking noise

Netherlands: I can into land now! GEKOLONISEERD!!

Belgium: belgium

Norway: 🥶🥶🥶🥶

France: evil laugh as now Britain is no longer an island

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u/Roi_Loutre Jun 15 '21

As a Frenchman, that was literally my first though

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u/dhruveishp Jun 15 '21

Napoleon would have had a field day!!

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u/danirijeka Jun 15 '21

As opposed to a naval day

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u/toreq Jun 15 '21

Ww2 would go a bit different

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u/romeo_pentium Jun 15 '21

Yes, Manx tanks would have rolled into the Greater Moravian Empire.

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u/cybercuzco Jun 15 '21

Too bad the climate of britain at that point would have more in common with siberia.

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u/litmeandme Jun 15 '21

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u/saadakhtar Jun 15 '21

There's an award for The Most Gratuitous Use of the Word 'Fuck/Belgium' in a Serious Screenplay

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u/Tigas_Al Jun 15 '21

I always thought the North Sea was really deep, guess I was wrong

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u/cucumbertree666 Jun 15 '21

It’s part of the continental shelf of Europe (I guess Afro-Eurasia as it’s all connected), so naturally it’s going to be shallower then parts of the open Atlantic Ocean, for example. Continental shelf depth never really gets deeper than 200 meters I think, but I might be wrong on that. A lot of the North Sea is generally 50 meters but can get to 15,

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u/Mobius_Peverell Jun 15 '21

The Norwegian Trench is. So if you look up "depth of the North Sea," that might be what's returned, rather than the more representative depth in the middle.

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u/TikTakTight Jun 15 '21

MAGNA-HOLANDA

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u/dearg3142 Jun 15 '21

i would have loved to see that super river that is formed by the confluence of the river thames and the Rhein.

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u/LancasterNotYork Jun 15 '21

Ah so this is where dogging comes from

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u/afurtherdoggo Jun 15 '21

Interesting! I'm from Texas and the area I grew up in used to be an ocean, so totally the opposite situation.

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u/Mobius_Peverell Jun 15 '21

Very different timeframes; the Western Interior Seaway existed tens of millions of years ago, before the Rockies were raised and while North America was tropical. Doggerland existed on an Earth that was geologically identical to our current one, just with less water in the oceans.

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u/cucumbertree666 Jun 15 '21

I would reckon your area had turned from land to ocean and back again multiple times, considering how (on a geological scale) these things happen often. It’s pretty cool actually.

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u/collinsl02 Jun 15 '21

I mean, the whole earth has been a snowball at leat once

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u/WelshBathBoy Jun 15 '21

All depends on the timeline, where I live in England, 200 million years ago was under the sea - during the Jurassic.

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u/Jomppaz Jun 15 '21

Heyyy, thats pretty cool!

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u/TheLastLivingBuffalo Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

I wonder how quick this happened? Would the sea level rise be noticeable in a lifetime? Would people have known that the lands their ancestors lived in were now underwater?

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u/BitScout Jun 15 '21

It seems to have happened at least partly in waves (pun intended), look up the Storegga event.

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u/geostrophicblue Jun 15 '21

The fastest rate of (eustatic) sea-level rise since the Last Glacial Maximum is thought to have been around 50mm/year during an event called Meltwater Pulse 1a (MWP-1a) at c. 14,000 years ago (before this map). Afterwards, it slowed to around 10mm/year although this would still have been noticable in a life time (that's around 0.5m over a 50-year lifespan).

The event /u/BitScout mentioned is very cool but it isn't really related to sea level rise.

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u/EmperorThan Jun 15 '21

I've heard of Doggers from the Brits... What a shame that their land was submerged, such a paradise we lost.

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u/lasdue Jun 15 '21

The car park is a far cry from the ancient lands lost

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u/BEEL-zi-bub Jun 15 '21

"Continental Europe above sea level"

"Land area today"

Nice save there , cause of course the Netherlands isn't above sea level :)

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u/Angel_Sorusian_King Jun 15 '21

Don't worry about it. The Dutch are planning to take it back lmfao

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u/lasdue Jun 15 '21

Can’t we just make Urk into a sea instead?

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u/MyNameIsBanker Jun 15 '21

I second this

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u/Maurice148 Jun 15 '21

wait that's middle earth